Posts by Juan Viejo2

43

Help me figure out what to say...I'm not usually at a loss for words

by Terry in

jw
friends

well, i finally found him on facebook!.

his name is tollie padgett.

he was my congregation overseer (before the "elder" changeover) when i was in prison in seagoville in the late 60's.. i've been searching for him for years and years.

Juan Viejo2

Terry,

Tollie shows up twice. I see where your photo is, but it looks like his other account is the active one. Go back and make sure that you try to connect with him there as well.

JV

81

Julia's Inquisition - Two elders, the full version! I want you all to see this.

by Julia Orwell in

jw
friends

sorry it's gonna be long winded.

i've done my best to reconstruct from memory.

my husband was next to me the whole time.

Juan Viejo2

Julia,

The next time they show up at your home and press you like they did on this visit, consider just asking them if they are "trying to chase you away"?

Be blunt about it. Point out the thousands of hours of door-to-door preaching work and the hundreds of pieces of literature that must be distributed just to get one single new convert. You are already a member and don't want to just walk away from it all even though you have some personal issues and some questions about the logic of the JW religion. But you are NOT asking to be thrown out. You aren't doing anything that would be considered a carnal sin. You are not a criminal. You are being respectful and in subjection to your husband - and to them as elders. Why don't they leave well-enough alone?

So why on their "shepherding call" would they want to make you feel awkward and try to make you feel guilty for having a few honest questions? Do they search for converts just so they can toss out many of those already part of the congregation. Where is the logic in that? What does that say to the new converts as they watch the existing members either leave or get chased away?

That would be the approach I would recommend. If they keep asking you about whether you accept the GB as the FDS, simply say that you don't know and that is not a big issue for you. Why are they making that an issue? Is that so important that you must accept the FDS doctrine completely without having a few personal doubts? Ask them if they don't occasionally have a twinge of doubt about something published in the Watchtower? Lots of brothers and sisters live with their doubts, but still go to meetings and engage in service. Some men may choose not to reach out for more responsibility because they know they have some doubts, but is that enough reason for them to just give up on the "Truth"?

I swear that I hear this same story so often that it is almost like the elders have nothing better to do that to look for reasons to force the rank and file to basically swear a loyalty oath in order to stay in the congregation. That was what your baptism was all about. You shouldn't have to swear on a Bible in order to stay in as long as you want.

Trust me on this. This has become a major issue as more and more elders feel that they must spend more of their time conducting an inquisition over their members. This is putting a lot of fear into the hearts of brothers and sisters everywhere. No one ever called the Inquisition an "act of love," and it actually weakened the Catholic Church in Europe. That is what the Watchtower is starting to do everywhere as they try to root out the apostates, real or imagined, within their midst. That, hopefully, will be their undoing.

JV

25

Bobby Rogers, founding member of The Miracles passes

by designs in

bobby rogers, along with cousin claudette (wife of smokey robinson), pete moore, ronnie white and smokey robinson formed the miracles in 1959 and had their first hits with 'bad girl' and the first motown #1 hit with 'shop around'.

the miracles became world famous for ooo baby baby, tracks of my tears, you've really got a hold on me among many others.. bobby wrote as well as sang and choreographed for the miracles, temptations, mary wells, marvin gaye, and the marvelettes (he was married to marvelettes lead singer wanda young).

going to a go go, ain't that peculiar, the way you do the things you do, my baby, what love has joined together are some of the songs he authored and co-wrote.. every summer in the 60s the motown review would come to los angeles.. here the miracles perform shop around.

Juan Viejo2

Saw the Miracles and the Temptations twice in the '60s - and both groups and the Four Tops on a couple of occasions in the 1980s.

Right after I got out of high school (Riverside Polytechnic, 1961), the next bigger city just 15 miles away, San Bernardino (CA), held some great shows at their municipal auditorium and also at the Orange Show Auditorium. I look back now and realize how much fun it was in those days when you could go to one of these shows and for $5.00 (USD) get to see a dozen great singing acts all on one stage and (at the Orange Show) actually dance to them.

Every time one of the members of these classic groups passes on I feel like I've lost a friend. I've seen them and heard them in person - and they were just as they appeared in these videos.

JV

45

The results of the 2012 survey are published, and the new 2013 survey is now online!

by cedars in

jw
friends

for those of you who are following our annual jw global survey, you will be pleased to know that the results have been published, and are available on the link below.... http://jwsurvey.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2012-jw-survey-results.pdf.

i would urge as many as possible to take part in our new survey, which has been enhanced to implement some of the suggestions we received from those taking part in last year's poll.. anyway, i hope you find the 2012 results helpful and enjoy taking part in our new survey.. by all means share your thoughts on the results on this thread, not to mention any suggestions that will help make the 2014 survey better still!

cedars.

Juan Viejo2

Entirely Possible -

You are absolutely right. The Global Surveys only tally the results for those who would go to JWSurvey. Who would they be? Readers of my sites, Freeminds, and JWN mostly. At the same time, the survey is well represented on Google search for anyone looking to find it. It is no accident that Cedar's site is named JWSurvey.org.

We don't have the luxury of being able to focus a survey like political surveys where phone numbers are sorted by congressional districts and voter registrations. We can't send a copy to the Watchtower and ask them to send our survey out to all members. Our only way to advertise and recruit participants is by doing exactly what we are doing here and on our other websites.

Knowing that the survey does have some limitations and might not pass muster with the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal doesn't negate the great and useful information that we can glean from it.

I get emails and phone calls from many current and former JWs who, when involved in conversation, will often share their opinions with me about certain issues. More often than not, unless it is the rare caller who is so blinded and set in cult ways that seeing TTATT is impossible for them, most would probably fit comfortably within the majority results of the Global Survey.

Knowing its weaknesses actually help us in the long run to adjust the meaning of the results. The only sad thing is that so many current JWs who might participate will never know that it exists and won't find it. We'd love their input - but are unlikely to get it.

JV

23

The real problem with Watchtower.

by Rattigan350 in

jw
friends

a topic on here about 1975 prompted me to write about how, for me, that is and never was or will be an issue.. also, the 144,000 and 'two classes' with memorial partaking, and child abuse are not issues with this religion.

everyone has their unique teachings and personnel problems.. the real problem with this religion was highlighted in the 2008 yearbook.

it gave a story of a young woman who was from estonia who was on the equivalent of american idol for estonia.

Juan Viejo2

The Watchtower's prejudice against education, self-expression, and personal growth may be a major contributor to the organization's own lack of growth and internal problems. Imagine if the Watchtower could point to the thousands of members who became engineers, educators, journalists, scientists, and sports stars who are/were Jehovah's Witnesses. They could show the world how truly blessed Witnesses have been by Jehovah.

Imagine the good they could have done if someone had not wasted their time in unproductive door-to-door witnessing, but had become an entrepreneur like Bill Gates. Gates and his wife Melinda run a foundation that focuses on education and health issues. He and his foundation are like the mythical Midas whose gold replenished itself nearly as fast as he could spend it. The Watchtower cooked their "gold laying goose" a long time ago when they began discouraging education for their children.

Instead the Watchtower can only point to people like rock star Prince and sports stars Venus and Serena Williams - more often embarrassments than pillars of their community. Many of their more famous and wealthy members only became famous and wealthy because they WERE NOT WITNESSES. Some could have become even more famous and wealthy, but left their successful field to become door knockers (Teresa Graves).

The Witness religion really is designed to turn potentially successful intelligent people into pauper drones. There are a few rare exceptions, but only because they had to leave the cult to finally achieve success; read http://watchtowerwatch.com/blog/its-going-to-be-ok

I once heard a lecture on the "real cost of war." Think of the thousands of American, British, Australian and Canadian men who died within minutes of hitting the beaches at Normandy, Iwo Jima, the Phillipines. Think of the thousands of Americans who died in Viet Nam. A fairly high percentage had at least high school educations and a large group (officers, pilots, engineers) had college educations. The speaker pointed out that in any 1000 males from those eras who either did not go to war or survived the war, approximately 180 excelled in some way later in life in education, science, medicine, or space technology. By extrapolation he theorized that had those millions not been killed in war we would have found the cures for cancer, ALS, MS, and Alzheimer's - probably by the late 1970s. Life spans may have increased by 10-15% beyond what they are today, with thousands of HEALTHY elders living to see 100 years or more. He went even further and pointed out that the wasteful wars of the 18th and 19th centuries (Napoleon, Civil War, colonization of Africa and Asia) wreaked havoc on the educated populations of Europe and North America. In spite of that, look how far we have progressed with just the survivors.

I feel the same about the Witnesses. They can believe what they want - even the Old Testament fairy tales - but allow them to educate themselves and prosper - and the Watchtower would greatly prosper with them. The Mormons are an excellent example of a cult that has prospered in spite of their ridiculous beliefs.

But no, the leaders want the R&F to basically live meaningless and non-expansive lives. Really - how many JWs aspire to be chosen for the Governing Body or traveling overseers some day? Is that the only goal available to them? What about the creative abilities of female JWs? Is all of that to be wasted as well?

JV

33

My attempt at correcting a heavily biased Wiki article

by cedars in

she was prevented from going to the authorities?

details of the policy have been published in jehovah's witnesses' publications and press releases issued by their office of public information.

if there is evidence to suggest that the alleged perpetrator did abuse children, congregation duties are suspended.[8].

Juan Viejo2

Good work, Cedars.

One thing that I know for certain and that is that I find Wikipedia more informative, and in general more accurate, than the classic hardbound encyclopedias we've all grown up with.

I know that is quite an assertion, but I know it to be truthful.

When I was growing up we had the Americana, the Brittanica, Colliers, World Book, and Funk & Wagnalls available to the masses. My parents bought F&W. Each year we would get a "yearbook" that included added material representative of the previous 12-36 months and a series of errata pages. During the 5 years that my parents bought that series (roughly 1952-1958) the yearbooks included errata that was about 50% of the entries. After 5 years, that set of encyclopedias became essentially obsolete. Public library sets of the majors had to be replaced about every ten years, but were so out of date they were basically useless for serious research.

Wikipedia changes all of that. It is a living resource. Some of it is wrong, much of it is quite accurate and continues to be updated at frequent intervals.

There is a prejudice against Wikipedia as a source for serious research, but for general information (like the Watchtower article above) it is often the most accurate resource available.

Before you flame me for taking this position, just think about what Cedars did. He found errors and had the ability to access Wiki and correct it, or add his own notes. Try doing that with your Funk & Wagnalls!

Just remember, everything you read must be digested with salt, huge grains of salt. Compare "Team of Rivals," and Bill O'reilly's book about Abraham Lincoln. O'reilly's book has outsold Team of Rivals in spite of being so poorly researched and full of inaccuracies, legendary tales, and outright falsehoods (so bad that most University libraries refuse to add it to their shelves) that a Lincoln museum refuses to sell it in their gift shop. Steven Spielberg's movie was based on Team of Rivals because he found it to be the most accurate and best researched book of that genre available.

Thanks for making the effort to get it right, Cedars.

JV

74

Governing Body Member Talking To Psychiatrist About Being In The Faithful & Discreet Slave Delusion

by frankiespeakin in

psyc: so how have you come to this conclusion about being what you call a faithful slave of jesus christ?.

morris: well you see jesus gave a parable that about this slave and we members of the governing body have strong evidence that we are that slave and that the parable in matthew 24 about the slave is prophetic and it refers to us.. psy: but that is just a parable, how do you know it is prophetic?.

morris: well first you need faith in jehovah before before i can even begin to explain to you how it all works.

Juan Viejo2

Psych: Hang on for just a minute! Did you say each year had 360 days? But a year has 365.23 days. That makes no sense. You'd be off by almost 37 years using that calculation. So what you are doing is substituting solar years for lunar years or vice versa.

Morris: Thanks! you just gave me an idea! All the Governing Body needs to do is recalculate and then come up with a new "1914"! Thanks Doc!

JV

43

an elder will be at my house in one hour HELP!

by Julia Orwell in

jw
friends

we've missed some meetings due to work and thinking it's bs and also one night my husband got drunk n fessed up n had a shepherding call n now the e is coming to see 'how we're doing'.

help me please i dunno what to do..

Juan Viejo2

Julia, I'm sorry, but I came to this late.

I spoke to a JW lady on the phone last week for about 20 minutes. She called me because she was a friend of a friend of someone who knew me and had my cell phone number. Someday in the future she wants to write an article for one of my websites about a visit she got from the elders. Your story reminded me of hers...

Apparently she and her "husband" (they're not really married but have been together for over a dozen years) have been going to the Kingdom Hall in their rural town (I won't give the state or city area, for obvious reasons). The Kingdom Hall used to have about 110 regular publishers plus a few unbaptized kids. Attendance was about 50% for the mid-week meeting and about 80% for the Sunday meetings. The CO determined that the problem was that about half the congregation was Hispanic, so he decided to split the congregation into English and Spanish meetings at different times. So for the English language congregation there was about 45 members and the Spanish congregation was about 60. After the split, the English side attendance kept falling off a little each month. At some point this sister couldn't hack it any more as the meetings were boring (yeah! she said that!) and the Watchtower Study became a joke, with about ten members answering every question. It was so boring that the two MS brothers spent all their time outside acting as parking lot attendants and all the elders not on the stage were hanging outside the main entry door gossiping. She said that at one meeting she could only count 15 seats actually occupied during most of the Watchtower study.

Anyway she had enough and decided to only go about once a month. After a few months, she'd go about once every 5-7 weeks. After about six months she got a call from one of the elders letting her know that he and another brother would be coming by for a "shepherding call." At first she was terrified that she was going to be DF'd or at least reproved for her poor meeting attendance. Her "husband" had stopped going completely except for the Memorial.

She told me that she became so fearful about what might happen that she actually went for a very long walk and spent the whole time praying for guidance. She cracked me up as she recounted her "conversation with Jehovah" during her long walk. She shared her feelings: "Jehovah, you know how bad those meetings are. You know how stupid those prayers sound. The music? I know you didn't write the tunes or the lyrics. Going to meetings is painful. I can learn more just staying home and studying the literature. But have you actually seen some of the stuff the Governing Body is writing? I know you have nothing to do with that - I don't equate stupid and illogical with You, Lord."

She said that when she started her walk the temperature was near freezing and a brisk wind was blowing, sometime nearly knocking her off her feet. By the time she got home, the wind had softened to a breeze and the sun was shining. She was so warm she had to drop her hood and unzip her jacket. It was like Jehovah had improved the weather as a way to tell her he had heard her. But after that walk she had been inspired and knew what she had to do.

When one of the elders and another mature brother showed up at her house she was ready for them. She told me that she went out of her way to make them feel welcome, making them coffee and offering them some pastries she had. She asked about all of the other brothers and sisters. Then she let them pray and read a couple of scriptures and ask her how she was feeling and why she hadn't been coming to the meetings recently. After assuring them that her health had never been better, she told them about her feeling unsatisfied going to meetings and what it felt like when she was there.

"I worry that Jehovah has left that place. I don't feel his presence in the Kingdom Hall at all. Do you? Everybody that shows up can't wait for the meetings to end so that they can go home or do something healthy. I think there is sickness in that Hall, don't you?"

The brothers visibly squirmed in their seats as they acknowledged that enthusiasm at the Hall had fallen off somewhat, but that they still felt that Jehovah's spirit was there during meetings. "Really?" she asked. "Then why do all of the MS and elders look for excuses to stand outside during most of the meetings? Why is it I never see any of them actually go out and knock on doors. Even Brother (X) doesn't even bother to bring his jacket to the field service meetings. He just reads a text, says a prayer and then sends the rest of us out the door. He always has 'something to do' and never joins us in service."

After the elder explained that Brother (X) had been very busy lately and he would be "judged by Jehovah" as to the value of his level of field service, he and the other brother started to excuse themselves. The sister had prepared for this. "Before you leave, would you answer a couple of questions for me that have been bugging me? I've been reading a lot of the literature and now I seem to have more questions than answers."

I won't go into detail, but she asked them specifically to explain the "Generation" doctrine and asked them to show her Bible scriptures that supported their answers. They kept referring to their concordance and indices, but had to "wing it" most of the time.

After they limped through trying to answer that, they again started to get up to leave. She said that she still had some questions. "I want to ask about blood transfusions. Please, just show me in the Bible if you don't mind." She pointed out that most of the scriptures they quoted were from the Hebrew Scriptures. They found a couple in the Greek that supported not eating blood. They agreed and explained that most of the Law was fulfilled by Jesus' sacrifice, but not all. "OK. Then why don't we observe the Sabbath on Saturdays? And why don't we tithe? We know the early Christians did."

They had no answer for those two questions, but promised to come back soon and bring the answers with them.

As they headed for the door, she gave them a written list of about 15 questions that she said were "bothering" her. She said she would look forward to them making another "shepherding call" on her very soon, but could they come prepared with the answers to those questions?

She told me that she had never before been to any "apostate" sites, but she did a Google search and found JWFacts.com and JWN to get ideas for her questions (but she hid that fact from the brothers). She told me that she wished she had a video camera going at the time to record the looks - and often really weird responses - she got from the two brothers as they kept heading for the door. As they left, she gave them both a big hug and asked them to pray with her, which they did. As they walked out the door, she happened to mention that she would probably have another list of questions for them when they came back.

I asked her what happened when they came back? "They haven't been back. No phone calls, no visits, nothing. Not a peep. What I haven't told you was that was nearly a year ago! All I had to do was be nice to them and ask them some serious questions that they should know the answers. I think I scared them."

I asked her if she felt threatened and whether she thought she might be reproved or DF'd. "I really don't think so. Other than poor meeting attendance and no current active service, they can't punish me for asking questions right from the Watchtower literature. They don't know about my "marriage," so I don't think they would come after me for that."

Her last remark to me was that she heard from another sister that a recent Watchtower study had just 11 people, of which only 5 were actually sitting in the auditorium seats. Three of those 5 were children under 12 years old.

Her last remark to me was, "I think that very soon they will have meeting scheduled when only the elders involved will show up and no one will be in the seats. It's sad, but I know that many JWs going to that Hall would be happy if the CO just closed down the English congregation. It's a joke."

Sorry this is so long, but I really enjoyed our phone call and it could have gone on forever - she wanted to share so much with me. But I think her story illustrates a fact that we could all use to combat JWs. Use their own weaknesses to defeat them. How can they punish you for asking simple questions? This sister really believes in Jehovah - she's sincere as can be - but she believes that He has removed his spirit from her Kingdom Hall because, as she opines, "most of them are hypocrites, especially the elders, and He's decided to just let them wither away."

JV

16

Trailer for 2013 Candace Conti / Rick Simons interview, now on YouTube

by cedars in

hi guys.

i have uploaded the following trailer for a forthcoming series of interview videos.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8ebwpjm6wa.

the interview, which was filmed on 10th february 2013, was based on questions provided by posters from this forum, specifically from this thread.... .

Juan Viejo2

Geesus, Zeb!

Turn up your volume a bit.

This is a trailer, not the whole movie. Music and atmosphere are appropriate to set the mood. Cedars did a great job.

JV

41

Menlo Park Legal Advisor Tells All

by Juan Viejo2 in

someone sent me a link to the anoninsurrection youtube page.

i found eleven videos documenting an interview with the legal advisor for the former menlo park kingdom hall elders.

you can find them here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=plszmu_qv0dgtco2wl5bnjdx12ny2_cmoo .. i've also published the entire set of eleven along with my comments on ex-jw.com.

Juan Viejo2

Just to update anyone who cares, I've taken down the aforementioned article at Ex-JW.com.

There were unverified rumors that somehow the Watchtower got to the original poster of the "Legal Advisor" videos and forced that person to remove all of the videos. They are indeed down and the YouTube account appears to be closed.

I'm not sure on what legal basis the Watchtower could have forced those privately filmed videos to be taken down (there are no obvious copyright infringements) unless they threatened a lawsuit for slander, but in any case they have disappeared.

For my own personal reasons I have taken down the complete article about Mr. Steele and the photos connected to him and those videos. I was not threatened or approached in any manner by the Watchtower Society or its agents, but chose to take this action for both my own journalistic integrity and due to a nearly complete lack of cooperation by those directly connected to the case (with one notable exception).

The real tragedy of this story has more to do with its effects on the confused members of both the Menlo Park congregation and those from Redwood City who also lost their Kingdom Hall and now must travel further to attend meetings.

JV - (Editor of Ex-JW.com)